British author and journalist Douglas Murray bristled when a South African interviewer bandied the term “genocide” to describe Israel’s war against Hamas and promptly took apart her anti-Israel arguments.
Murray was interviewed by Jane Dutton of Eyewitness News, who mentioned Murrays’ criticism of South Africa accusing Israel of “genocide” before the International Court of Justice.
Murray blasted South Africa, saying, “I always think that for voters in any country, first order of priorities: getting the water clean; getting the roads running; getting the infrastructure working; getting healthcare; getting education. I do think that quite often, in my observation — I’ve covered a lot of countries around the world — quite often in my observation, those first-order priorities, if the government fails at that, it does distraction kinds of things. … I don’t think it’s something of primary importance to the people of South Africa; I don’t think it’s first order priorities for the voters, and I’m suspicious when governments pull international tricks.”
Dutton suggested someone had to do what South Africa had done, prompting Murray to reply, “Not at all. There’s an awful lot of things going on in the world … an awful lot of conflicts. I don’t think at all that what’s happening in Gaza is genocide; I think it’s an unbelievable smear against Israel. I’ve covered that war as I’ve covered many others.”
“Don’t you think it’s a self-inflicted smear against Israel?” Dutton said to attack Israel.
“No. I was in Ukraine last year. Are the Ukrainians committing genocide?” Murray asked, leaving Dutton unable to reply. “I ask you,” he prompted.
“What’s that got to do with Israel?” she finally managed.
“I ask you: There are many wars going on. Is Ukraine committing genocide?” Murray repeated.
‘No,” she answered.
“Right,” Murray said.
“Is Russia committing genocide?” she asked.
“Russia’s committing a war of hostile aggression, for sure, although it doesn’t seem to be attempting to eradicate the Ukrainian population as a whole, which is, of course, what genocide is,” he answered.
“Which is what Israel seems to be doing,” Dutton snapped.
“The allegation of genocide … why would Israel be committing genocide in Gaza?” he asked her.
“What would you describe it?” she asked.
“It’s a war, which I’ve seen up close,” he replied. “Let me just explain that: If you start a war, which is what Hamas did on the 7th of October, if you start a war, there are repercussions There are repercussions to Russia starting a war against Ukraine. Russia’s lost a lot of troops. There are repercussions for Hamas starting a war against Israel.”
Dutton then insisted Israel was conducting “an illegal occupation” against the Palestinians in Gaza and Judea and Samaria (West Bank).
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Murray then asked her repeatedly who had sealed off Gaza. Dutton, who said she had been to Gaza, mentioned Israel, the U.S., and “whoever helps the Israelis.”
When Murray asked her who else and she had no answer, he fired back, “Well, as you know, if you’ve been, Gaza also has a border with Egypt. Why do you not mention Egypt? Egypt has a stronger fence to fence in the people of Gaza than Israel does.”
“You might note there were more workers, until the 7th, allowed in Israel to work and indeed to have medical treatments and others considered necessary … plenty more people every day coming into Israel to work from Gaza until the 7th, than were going the other way into Egypt,” Murray pointed out.
“The facts are the facts and I just want to pick you up on something you just did,” he continued. “I think you are uninformed. You didn’t say that Egypt is blockading Gaza. … As you well know, in 2005, Israeli troops ripped Jewish families from their home in the Gaza. … You’ve got to inform your viewer of the facts and you just misled them. In 2005, Israeli troops ripped every Jewish family from their home in Gaza and handed over all of Gaza, which is completely clear of Jews.”
“We can agree to disagree, but don’t misinform your viewers,” he said. “I’m informing them because you’re not. … The point that you keep on trying to distract everyone from is that Israel took every Jew from Gaza in 2005, handed it over to the Palestinians, who then voted in Hamas, to the great detriment of the Palestinian people. They have been ruled by Hamas for the last 18 years. If you want to look for the source of the conflict, look to that fact.”
When Dutton insisted we “are where we are today” because of Israeli settlements in Judea and Samaria, Murray responded, “You just did it again. You threw in a false fact. We are not where we are today because of settlements in the West Bank that are disputed. That’s not why Hamas broke out of Gaza on the 7th of October and massacred people they hate. It’s not because of the West Bank and you well know it. … They did it, by their own admission, because they wanted to massacre every Jew they could get their hands on, and Hamas has said they will do it again and again. So don’t get on to the distraction of settlements … don’t distract from the crime of Hamas. Don’t do that.”