Daily Wire Editor Emeritus Ben Shapiro and liberal radio host Charlamagne tha God emerged from a Monday morning debate on abortion agreeing on far more than might have been expected from the outset.
Shapiro joined Charlamagne on his popular radio program &#8220;The Breakfast Club&#8221; to discuss his new book, &#8220;<a href="https://store.dailywire.com/collections/ben-shapiro/products/lions-and-scavengers">Lions &amp; Scavengers: The True Story of America</a>,&#8221; and the topic shifted to Shapiro&#8217;s pro-life stance — which quickly turned into a discussion on when life begins and what the abortion debate is truly about: whether life in the womb deserves the same legal status and protections as does life outside the womb.
&#8220;It&#8217;s very, like, per person,&#8221; cohost Jess Hilarious said of abortion, arguing that the choice should always be left up to the woman because no one else could feel what she was feeling or should be allowed to judge what she chose to do.
&#8220;You&#8217;re talking about what a woman should be allowed to do. I&#8217;m talking about the definition of personhood of the separate person inside the woman,&#8221; Shapiro pushed back, saying that the real question was not about a woman&#8217;s rights, but about whether or not the baby she was carrying had rights independent of hers.
When Jess said that she personally believed abortions should happen &#8220;earlier&#8221; — recognizing that the emotional toll on the woman was greater as the pregnancy progressed — Shapiro carried the argument out to its obvious end.
&#8220;I don&#8217;t think that the subjective definition of life is how we define life,&#8221; he said. &#8220;We all agree, for example, that a one-month-old baby should not be drowned. Right, we all agree on that. And that&#8217;s not up to the personal &#8230; and the question is, well, why? Because we now understand that the one-month-old baby, everyone agrees with this, right, that — except for Peter Singer at Princeton — that a one-month-old baby has an independent interest in life.&#8221;
Shapiro went on to say that once life was defined, it no longer mattered &#8220;what the state of mind of the woman&#8221; might be, her rights could not supersede the rights of another independent life.
&#8220;The question becomes, is that true before birth?&#8221; he asked.
Cohost DJ Envy stepped in then, saying that Shapiro was &#8220;playing with semantics&#8221; and asking whether he would feel the same way if his daughter was raped.
&#8220;It&#8217;s not semantics, either it&#8217;s a life or it&#8217;s not,&#8221; Shapiro said.
DJ Envy continued to press the point, asking Shapiro whether he&#8217;d force his daughter to carry a baby conceived in rape or incest.
&#8220;What I&#8217;m saying there is I don&#8217;t believe in abortion in cases of rape and incest,&#8221; Shapiro confirmed, adding, &#8220;The practical effect is horrible, okay? I&#8217;m not going to pretend that it is not emotionally horrifying, that particular situation. The question is whether it has an independent interest in life or not, and whether there is a third party involved &#8230; we should understand that&#8217;s the actual conversation.&#8221;
WATCH:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet">
&#8220;You&#8217;re talking about what a woman should be allowed to do. I&#8217;m talking about the definition of personhood of the separate person inside the woman.<a href="https://twitter.com/benshapiro?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@benshapiro</a>&#8216;s argument against abortion on <a href="https://twitter.com/breakfastclubam?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@breakfastclubam</a> is a must watch ⬇️ <a href="https://t.co/3imJE2K9hI">pic.twitter.com/3imJE2K9hI</a>
— Daily Wire (@realDailyWire) <a href="https://twitter.com/realDailyWire/status/1965046952141435332?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 8, 2025</a></blockquote>
Shapiro reiterated his position, explaining that he most disliked the argument that each person could decide independently when life began, saying that the definition could not be arbitrary or it would cease to be a definition at all.
&#8220;The argument I don&#8217;t like is that it&#8217;s up to every single person to define when life begins,&#8221; he said.
Charlamagne weighed in then, saying he would argue that life began when there was a heartbeat.
&#8220;If life begins at the heartbeat &#8230; you&#8217;re talking about abortion restrictions very early on,&#8221; Shapiro pointed out.
WATCH:
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet">
.<a href="https://twitter.com/benshapiro?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@benshapiro</a>: The argument I don&#8217;t like is that it&#8217;s up to every single person to define when life begins.<a href="https://twitter.com/cthagod?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@cthagod</a>: I think it begins when there&#8217;s a heartbeat.<a href="https://twitter.com/benshapiro?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">@benshapiro</a>: If life begins at the heartbeat &#8230; you&#8217;re talking about abortion restrictions very early on. <a href="https://t.co/nM4IYeQGeO">pic.twitter.com/nM4IYeQGeO</a>
— Daily Wire (@realDailyWire) <a href="https://twitter.com/realDailyWire/status/1965050577844625723?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">September 8, 2025</a></blockquote>
Despite obvious disagreements on the topic at hand — and how contentious conversations on that particular topic can be — everyone on the set <a href="https://x.com/breakfastclubam/status/1965093633000194410">remained respectful</a> of the others as they laid out their arguments.

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Ben Shapiro’s ‘Breakfast Club’ Abortion Debate Spawns More Consensus Than Heated Contention

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Ben Shapiro’s ‘Breakfast Club’ Abortion Debate Spawns More Consensus Than Heated Contention